¥ - Coronavirus (covid-19) suivi et évolution - Chine (mainland & Hong Kong) & Asie

Vos inquietudes a propos de la situation sanitaire due au coronavirus (2019-ncov)

  • Je ne suis pas inquiet !

    Votes: 47 40,9%
  • Je suis tres inquiet !

    Votes: 28 24,3%
  • Je n'envisage pas de quitter la Chine !

    Votes: 32 27,8%
  • A partir de 500 victimes je quitte la Chine !

    Votes: 1 0,9%
  • A partir de 1000 victimes je quitte la Chine !

    Votes: 4 3,5%
  • Au dessus de 2000 victimes je quitte la Chine !

    Votes: 3 2,6%
  • Pensez vous que le gouvernement va stabiliser la situation dans les jours a venir ? Oui

    Votes: 30 26,1%
  • Pensez vous que le gouvernement va stabiliser la situation dans les jours a venir ? Non

    Votes: 28 24,3%
  • J'envisage serieusement de quitter la Chine si les etudes de mes enfants sont compromises !

    Votes: 3 2,6%
  • J'envisage serieusement de quitter la Chine si cette situation dure trop longtemps !

    Votes: 37 32,2%

  • Nombre total d'électeurs
    115

Mathieu

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Quand tu vois comment dans certains pays on se bat pour essayer d'obtenir des doses... et eux laissent pourrir les leurs...
Je ne sais pas combien ont été jeté au final mais c'est vraiment du gachi vu le faible nombre de vacciné à HK
 

Manu Degois

Membre Bronze
25 Août 2021
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Quand tu vois comment dans certains pays on se bat pour essayer d'obtenir des doses... et eux laissent pourrir les leurs...
Je ne sais pas combien ont été jeté au final mais c'est vraiment du gachi vu le faible nombre de vacciné à HK
La décision leur appartient.
 

ChrisHK

Alpha & Oméga
27 Déc 2013
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Quand tu vois comment dans certains pays on se bat pour essayer d'obtenir des doses... et eux laissent pourrir les leurs...
Je ne sais pas combien ont été jeté au final mais c'est vraiment du gachi vu le faible nombre de vacciné à HK
Je ne pense pas qu’il y ait eu trop de gâchis, pour 2 raisons :
- le rythme des vaccinations a été bien plus élevé ces 3 derniers mois
- la totalité de la commande de vaccins n’a pas été livrée en une seule fois, il est donc raisonnable de penser que les livraisons ont été rééchelonnées en fonction des stocks et des besoins.
 

Mathieu

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ChrisHK

Alpha & Oméga
27 Déc 2013
13 647
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183
Hong Kong et Shanghai

lafoy-china

Modo en rolls
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Hong-Kong - Dongguan - Beijing - Paris -
Fin 2023 - début 2024 si tout va bien … :grin:
Bonjour Chris
Soyons larges afin d'assurer une bonne coordination ! ;)

Aéroports de Paris ne s'attend pas à un retour à la normale du trafic aérien avant 2025-2027

 
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Crimson

Alpha & Oméga
26 Oct 2009
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Right Behind You

Je l'avais louper celle la.. Ayant un enfant du meme age.. Je pense que je finirais en taule..
Pas possible de mettre les enfants en quarantaine avec leurs parents? Really? visiblement les autorites ont reagient et veulent bannir ces pratiques mais quid du responsable qui a pris la decision initiale... Il y des baffes qui se perdent.. Common sense!
On ose esperer que l'infirmiere qui a balance les images sera felicitee et pas a titre posthume comme d'autres sonneurs d'alertes du debut 2020..
 
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Manu Degois

Membre Bronze
25 Août 2021
100
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58

Je l'avais louper celle la.. Ayant un enfant du meme age.. Je pense que je finirais en taule..
Pas possible de mettre les enfants en quarantaine avec leurs parents? Really? visiblement les autorites ont reagient et veulent bannir ces pratiques mais quid du responsable qui a pris la decision initiale... Il y des baffes qui se perdent.. Common sense!
On ose esperer que l'infirmiere qui a balancer les images sera felicite et pas a titre posthume comme d'autres sonnuers d'alertes du debut 2020..
Je ne suis pas surpris et ce n'est certainement pas la première fois que cela se passe. Que savons-nous de ce qui se passe en-dehors de Shanghai ? Rien, et encore, nous ne sommes pas les moins bien lotis....Les excuses vont à nouveau pleuvoir: "oui mais en France...." etc, etc.....
 

Mathieu

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Covered from head to toe in a white hazmat suit, a small child carrying a backpack half the size of his body toddles down a hospital corridor and arrives at a CT scan room -- all by himself.
Que savons-nous de ce qui se passe en-dehors de Shanghai ? Rien, et encore, nous ne sommes pas les moins bien lotis
En l'espèce des gamins en tenue de cosmonaute j'en avais deux comme ca derrière mois dans l'avion a mon retour en Chine avec la visière, la tenue blanche, le ffp2, etc... Et ce n'était pas les autorités qui les avaient contraints à porter cette tenue mais les parents pour les protéger. Donc rien d'étonnant qu'on demande à des enfants covid+ dans ce pays qui a une approche jusqu'au boutiste en la matière.
Il est bien plus problématique qu'un gamin soit séparé de ses parents tout ce temps pour affronter quelque chose d'aussi difficile.

le virologue de HK a plutôt bien résumé les choses :
"It's basically a strategy of 'rather killing a thousand by mistake than letting one go,'" said Jin Dongyan, a virologist at the University of Hong Kong. "Children shouldn't have needed to undergo such extreme quarantine measures. This is the social cost of the zero-tolerance approach."

Le virus n'ayant que faire des bons sentiments les deux alternatives à cette gestion froide et implacable des choses ne sont pas non plus idéales mais la deuxième est sans doutes préférable :
  • soit tu baisses la garde au nom de bons sentiments et laisse les enfants libres mais tu prends le risque que ca flambe derrière (d'ailleurs le cluster du Fujian s'est développé dans une école). On voit chez nous quel est le cout des exceptions systématiques à la règle qui font que le 0 covid y est impossible.
  • soit tu adoptes une approche intermédiaire sans doutes préférable en laissant des parents négatifs faire leur quarantaine avec les enfants positifs quitte à ce que les parents deviennent positifs à leur tour. Mais en étant conscient que si le parent devient positif au cours de la quarantaine, cela prolongera d'autant la mise en quarantaine de l'enfant... L'alternative n'est pas gérable en cas d'épidémie massive mais comme les choses semblent maitrisées, on devrait pouvoir s'autoriser la lourdeur ajoutée au nom d'une certaine humanité dans la gestion...
Au delà du constat du virologue il y a une réalité également que la Chine est déjà un pays où le groupe prime naturellement sur l'individu quitte à l'écraser pour le bien du groupe. C'est la chose qui m'a toujours effrayé en Chine même si j'en comprends l'intérêt. Si un jour le rouleau compresseur s'abat sur toi pour le bien supposé ou réel (peu importe) du groupe... tu n'a juste plus grand chose à faire que subir pleinement... c'est évidemment là ou le système français en tant qu'individu est bien plus appréciable et protecteur (mais aussi devenu de plus en plus compliqué à manier pour assurer le bien commun).
 

ChrisHK

Alpha & Oméga
27 Déc 2013
13 647
13 242
183
Hong Kong et Shanghai
Je ne suis pas surpris et ce n'est certainement pas la première fois que cela se passe. Que savons-nous de ce qui se passe en-dehors de Shanghai ? Rien, et encore, nous ne sommes pas les moins bien lotis....Les excuses vont à nouveau pleuvoir: "oui mais en France...." etc, etc.....
C'était déjà arrivé à Hong Kong :

 

Manu Degois

Membre Bronze
25 Août 2021
100
-4
23
58
Dernière édition:

guillaumeenchine

Demi-dieu
09 Sept 2019
3 701
242
113
46
C'est la chose qui m'a toujours effrayé en Chine même si j'en comprends l'intérêt. Si un jour le rouleau compresseur s'abat sur toi pour le bien supposé ou réel (peu importe) du groupe... tu n'a juste plus grand chose à faire que subir pleinement... c'est évidemment là ou le système français en tant qu'individu est bien plus appréciable et protecteur (mais aussi devenu de plus en plus compliqué à manier pour assurer le bien commun).

Enfin un peu de lucidite. Pas trop tot. Tu sais, dans ce genre de systeme, il y a toujours un moment ou le doigt inquisitateur se retournera contre toi...

«Quand les allemands sont venus chercher les communistes, je n’ai rien dit, je n’étais pas communiste.
Quand ils ont enfermé les sociaux-démocrates, je n’ai rien dit, je n’étais pas social-démocrate.
Quand ils sont venus chercher les syndicalistes, je n’ai rien dit, je n’étais pas syndicaliste.
Quand ils sont venus me chercher, il ne restait plus personne pour protester.»
 
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ChrisHK

Alpha & Oméga
27 Déc 2013
13 647
13 242
183
Hong Kong et Shanghai
Enfin un peu de lucidite. Pas trop tot. Tu sais, dans ce genre de systeme, il y a toujours un moment ou le doigt inquisitateur se retournera contre toi...
Inquisitateur ?

Tu te prends pour l'inventateur d'un nouveau vocabulaire ?
Je ne veux pas faire l'accusatateur, mais les institutateurs et autres educatateurs, qui étaient censés t'inculquer les rudiments de la langue française, ont vraiment loupé leur mission.
Tu devrais utiliser le correctateur orthographique ...

:ptdr: :ptdr: :ptdr:
 

guillaumeenchine

Demi-dieu
09 Sept 2019
3 701
242
113
46
Inquisitateur ?

Tu te prends pour l'inventateur d'un nouveau vocabulaire ?
Je ne veux pas faire l'accusatateur, mais les institutateurs et autres educatateurs, qui étaient censés t'inculquer les rudiments de la langue française, ont vraiment loupé leur mission.
Tu devrais utiliser le correctateur orthographique ...

:ptdr: :ptdr: :ptdr:

Je vais te le mettre dans le derriere le doigt inquistateur, ca va pas tarder :marteau:
 

guillaumeenchine

Demi-dieu
09 Sept 2019
3 701
242
113
46
Enfin, j'me comprends. Ce que je veux dire c'est qu'on se retrouvera tous un jour ou l'autre dans l'oeil du cyclope.
 

ChrisHK

Alpha & Oméga
27 Déc 2013
13 647
13 242
183
Hong Kong et Shanghai
Article intéressant du SCMP sur la politique 0-Covid, la réouverture, le vivre avec le virus, les conséquences d'une réouverture, les conséquences d'un isolationnisme ...

From Hong Kong to Australia, how much death and sickness lie ahead as vaccination rates max out?

  • Statistically, societies may have to accept more Covid-19 deaths than those caused by the flu to move beyond the likes of lockdowns and border closures
  • Among territories with fully vaccinated populations of more than 70 per cent, mortality rates vary, but health experts say the time for this conversation is nigh

.
Since the arrival of Covid-19 vaccines, a crucial but largely unspoken question has loomed large for countries looking towards returning to pre-pandemic life: how much sickness and death will occur even after nearly everybody has been jabbed?
Possible answers to that question are coming into view as a growing number of territories get close to their maximum vaccination rates.
Although varying considerably, the emerging picture points to a post-vaccinated future in which societies may have to accept significantly more Covid-19 deaths than those caused by the flu to move beyond restrictions such as lockdowns and border closures.
While European countries with high vaccination rates have largely returned to normal life, living with Covid-19 could prove more difficult to accept for Asia-Pacific economies that avoided even flu-level death rates by sealing their borders.

“My personal feeling is that, after brainwashing people in many places with this fight against the virus and suppressing it, telling people that everything would be back to normal with a vaccine, politicians are finding the inconvenient and unpalatable truth difficult to sell,” said Roberto Bruzzone, an infectious-disease expert and co-director of the HKU-Pasteur Research Pole in Hong Kong.
“It seems that we can die of all kinds of diseases, but not of Covid-19. We do not need numbers to be anaesthetised and trivialise suffering, but death is part of life and we need to keep this pandemic in perspective.”
Despite growing frustrations among residents and businesses, Hong Kong – where 213 deaths have been reported – has yet to lay out a road map for easing some of the world’s strictest border controls, including 14 to 21 days of mandatory hotel quarantine for practically all arrivals.

More so than the city’s vaccination rate, which is about 52 per cent, many observers believe reopening depends on Beijing. The central government is widely expected to keep China closed until well into 2022 and possibly even beyond.
Australia, which has abandoned its “zero-Covid” policy amid major outbreaks in Sydney and Melbourne, is looking to end lockdowns and restart international travel before the end of the year, even as debate rages among health experts and state leaders about whether Canberra is moving to reopen too fast. After a slow start, Australian authorities have ramped up vaccinations in recent weeks, with about 38 per cent of the total population now fully covered.

Living with Covid-19 could prove more difficult to accept for Asia-Pacific economies that avoided even flu-level death rates by sealing their borders. Photo: AFPLiving with Covid-19 could prove more difficult to accept for Asia-Pacific economies that avoided even flu-level death rates by sealing their borders. Photo: AFP
Living with Covid-19 could prove more difficult to accept for Asia-Pacific economies that avoided even flu-level death rates by sealing their borders. Photo: AFP
Since the arrival of Covid-19 vaccines, a crucial but largely unspoken question has loomed large for countries looking towards returning to pre-pandemic life: how much sickness and death will occur even after nearly everybody has been jabbed?
Possible answers to that question are coming into view as a growing number of territories get close to their maximum vaccination rates.
Although varying considerably, the emerging picture points to a post-vaccinated future in which societies may have to accept significantly more Covid-19 deaths than those caused by the flu to move beyond restrictions such as lockdowns and border closures.
While European countries with high vaccination rates have largely returned to normal life, living with Covid-19 could prove more difficult to accept for Asia-Pacific economies that avoided even flu-level death rates by sealing their borders.
Are Hong Kong’s strict Covid-19 rules affecting emergency medical care?
29 Aug 2021

“My personal feeling is that, after brainwashing people in many places with this fight against the virus and suppressing it, telling people that everything would be back to normal with a vaccine, politicians are finding the inconvenient and unpalatable truth difficult to sell,” said Roberto Bruzzone, an infectious-disease expert and co-director of the HKU-Pasteur Research Pole in Hong Kong.
“It seems that we can die of all kinds of diseases, but not of Covid-19. We do not need numbers to be anaesthetised and trivialise suffering, but death is part of life and we need to keep this pandemic in perspective.”
Despite growing frustrations among residents and businesses, Hong Kong – where 213 deaths have been reported – has yet to lay out a road map for easing some of the world’s strictest border controls, including 14 to 21 days of mandatory hotel quarantine for practically all arrivals.
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More so than the city’s vaccination rate, which is about 52 per cent, many observers believe reopening depends on Beijing. The central government is widely expected to keep China closed until well into 2022 and possibly even beyond.
Australia, which has abandoned its “zero-Covid” policy amid major outbreaks in Sydney and Melbourne, is looking to end lockdowns and restart international travel before the end of the year, even as debate rages among health experts and state leaders about whether Canberra is moving to reopen too fast. After a slow start, Australian authorities have ramped up vaccinations in recent weeks, with about 38 per cent of the total population now fully covered.

New Zealand, which is about 33 per cent fully vaccinated, in August laid out a road map for a phased reopening of its borders from early next year, but government figures have since expressed doubt about the plan amid the emergence of the highly transmissible Delta variant.
Singapore, which has reported 62 deaths, is struggling to follow through on its widely publicised pledge to live with the virus amid rising case numbers, so far only allowing quarantine-free travel from Germany, Brunei, Hong Kong, Macau, mainland China, and Taiwan. Although the city state on Monday reported 917 new cases, the overwhelming majority of infections were mild, with just 18 patients requiring intensive care out of the 1,055 in hospitals.

Julian Savulescu, a philosopher and bioethicist at the University of Oxford and University of Melbourne, said countries that had followed elimination or zero-Covid approaches continued to have “unrealistic expectations of safety and near immortality”.
“It will require public education or realignment of expectations,” he said. “When smallpox was rife, you wouldn’t even have noticed the Covid pandemic. That is not to say that we should return to the bad old days – we should try to prevent death whenever it is reasonable. But every life has a maximum price. The response of many countries has arguably been disproportionate.”
But Alexandra Martiniuk, an epidemiologist at the University of Sydney School of Public Health, said she believed countries that had largely kept Covid-19 at bay could aim for even lower death rates than indicated by the emerging data from highly vaccinated countries.

“Many people want to be done with Covid, but there are many more improvements yet to be seen,” she said, predicting that vaccinating young children would be a next step. “Countries can aim higher. About 95 per cent of children in many countries are vaccinated against measles, polio – we can aim high for Covid vaccines. We can smooth out vaccine coverage, ensuring a more equal distribution across countries.”

“New treatments are coming all the time,” Martiniuk added. “Some may assist people when they first become ill.”
At least 13 countries had fully vaccinated more than 70 per cent of their total population as of September 18, according to Our World in Data figures, a level of coverage with relatively little room for growth due to pockets of vaccine hesitancy and the lack of approved vaccines for those under the age of 12 in most territories. A handful, including China, Cambodia and Chile, have authorised vaccines for young children, who are at extremely low risk of serious illness, while authorities including the US Food and Drug Administration are considering approval.

On Monday, Pfizer and BioNTech announced that trials showed their vaccine to be safe and effective for children between the ages of five and 11, with the companies planning to apply for emergency authorisation in the United States before the end of the month.
Apart from Singapore, which has yet to experience deaths on a large scale, Covid-19 mortality rates in the other 12 countries – Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Denmark, Ireland, Iceland, Malta, Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Uruguay, Chile, and Seychelles – have declined dramatically from their pandemic peaks.
But mortality rates between these countries – which have only minimal restrictions, such as requiring masks indoors and, with the exception of Singapore and Uruguay, allow quarantine-free arrival for vaccinated travellers – vary significantly

At the upper end, Malta and Spain respectively had seven-day averages of 1.67 and 1.51 daily Covid-19 deaths per 1 million people, according to the Our World in Data figures.
Spain’s daily average of 70 deaths from the disease would equate to 25,550 deaths over a year, about 60 per cent higher than the combined tolls of its 2019 and 2018 flu seasons, as calculated by the National Centre for Epidemiology.
Ireland, Portugal, Belgium, Uruguay, and Denmark had between 0.34 and 0.69 daily coronavirus deaths per million.
Spread across a year, Denmark’s average of two Covid-19 deaths a day would total 730, about on par with its 2017 and 2019 flu seasons. By comparison, Ireland’s daily average of three deaths would be equivalent to roughly twice the annual toll from the flu

Singapore had just 0.05 coronavirus deaths – translating into one or two deaths every few days – while Iceland, Qatar and Seychelles had an average of zero deaths.
Siddharth Sridhar, a virologist at the University of Hong Kong (HKU), said while there was no playbook for reopening, authorities in places such as the city had “better begin preparing the public that we are going to have to take this painful walk eventually”.
Catherine Bennett, an epidemiologist at Deakin University in Melbourne, said although the vaccines were not a silver bullet, they should allow societies to live with the virus.
“Now, as we give up on the expectation of returning to Covid zero as we bring the current outbreaks under control, it is hoped this will make the transition to living with the virus more acceptable and possible for all, even though it will come with a death toll,” she said.

“If we can get the number of serious cases in hospital or [in intensive care] down to flu levels, then I think most people would accept that. If the deaths are in unvaccinated younger adults, though, that will be different. It may then push vaccination rates higher rather than forcing us to take a step back into tougher restrictions.”
Calvin Ho, an expert in medical ethics at HKU, said it was difficult to say what levels of disease and death societies were prepared to accept given their varying conditions, but international isolation would be difficult to sustain without serious economic and social costs.
“I do agree that we do need to base our conversation on what our health systems could realistically manage, and understanding that it is highly improbable that Covid-19 will suddenly disappear and it is equally unlikely that a perfectly safe medically induced endpoint will be reached,” he said.
Savulescu, the University of Oxford bioethicist, said there needed to be a balanced discussion that placed Covid-19 in context, instead of viewing the disease as the sole concern of society.
“We have to balance values, not consider only one to the exclusion of all others,” Savulescu said, describing the tendency of people to place undue significance on information that is in front of them and prefer avoiding losses to making equivalent gains.
“Part of the reason for this is change in communication through the internet and social media – it hijacks all our weaknesses, biases, and worst tendencies to tribalism and other moral and cognitive biases, including loss aversion and availability bias.”
Source : https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/heal...ss-lie?module=lead_hero_story&pgtype=homepage
 

ChrisHK

Alpha & Oméga
27 Déc 2013
13 647
13 242
183
Hong Kong et Shanghai

lafoy-china

Modo en rolls
Membre du personnel
08 Mar 2009
15 786
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198
Hong-Kong - Dongguan - Beijing - Paris -
Suivi hebdomadaire de Singapour qui a opte pour une strategie differente vs Hong Kong et son objectif zero covid ...

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